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Helen Herrmann

Helen Herrmann
Nationality: German
Location: Cochem • France • Germany • Marseille • Missouri • St. Louis • Trier • United States of America
Experience During Holocaust: Escaped the Holocaust • Family Died During the Holocaust • Family Died in Concentration Camp

Mapping Helen's Life

Click on the location markers to learn more about Helen. Use the timeline below the map or the left and right keys on your keyboard to explore chronologically. In some cases the dates below were estimated based on the oral histories.

“Sometimes I wonder how I made it, how I could do it... on the run all the time.” - Helen Herrmann

Read Helen's Oral History Transcripts

Read the transcripts by clicking the red plus signs below.

Tape 1 - Side 1

HEIFETZ: Give me just your first name.
HERRMANN: Helen Herrmann. So where should we start?
HEIFETZ: Why donā€™t you tell me where youā€™re from.
HERRMAN: Iā€™m from Cochem. Should I spell it to you?
HEIFETZ: Surely.
HERRMANN: C O C H E M.
HEIFETZ: M?
HERRMANN: M ā€“ (PAUSES) but sometimes it is spelled with a K, also. But when I went to school, we spelled it with a C.
HEIFETZ: I see, Cochem.
HERRMANN: Cochem on the Moselle. Itā€™s on the Moselle ā€“ itā€™s Rhineland.
HEIFETZ: On theā€¦
HERRMANN: Rhineland.
HEIFETZ: And you said Cochem on theā€¦
HERRMANN: Moselleā€¦Moselle (PAUSES) very close to the French border also. So I had a normal childhood.
HEIFETZ: Did you grow up speaking French as well?
HERRMANN: No, no, no. We didnā€™t spoke French. It was German, you know, uh, didnā€™t spoke French.
HEIFETZ: And tell me about your family.
HERRMANN: My father, my mother and the younger sister (PAUSE) which was four years younger. Well we went to (PAUSE) to a school, you know, like anybody else and you know there was no different if there was Jewish or not that time, that was before ā€™33 and I went to grammar school till the fourth grade and then I started in a private school and that was Catholic nuns, so I was when I was 14, when I usually go till 14 to school, and thatā€™s it. But in a private school, you could go to 16, but since Iā€™m Jewish, so I couldnā€™t furtherā€¦so I stayed home a while and I had nobody, nobody my age, Jewish, Christian.
HEIFETZ: In your town there was no one Jewish?
HERRMANN: No, no one Jewish. There were Jewish, but notā€¦not people, not children of my age. (PAUSES) So I didnā€™t went toā€¦to sewing school.
HEIFETZ: To?
HERRMANN: Sewing ā€“ to learn sew ā€“ little a while, it was alsoā€¦and after I was 15 or so, you know, nobody talked to you anymore. They all were afraid to talk to you, you know, kids who went to school with me.
HEIFETZ: You were born what year?
HERRMANN: ā€™20 (PAUSES)ā€¦1920. So everything was normal till I was 13, you know.
HEIFETZ: How did the nuns treat you before then?
HERRMANN: Okay too. But they treated me before ā€“ there was only one Jewish girl and one true Protestant in that school.
HEIFETZ: How did it feel being the only Jewish girl?
HERRMANN: Iā€¦you didnā€™t, you know, didnā€™t make no difference, you know. When the priest ā€“ they had twice a week the priest came for someā€¦for one hour so we could go out ā€“ so we didnā€™t have to stayā€¦But you always were praying before eachā€¦each class. But in the ā€“ in the other schools too, you know, in the morning.
HEIFETZ: Even in the public school?
HERRMANN: You know, everything there was no different ā€“ state or religion ā€“ even, uh, I had Hebrew school, you know, maybe five, six kids but they all very young and so twice a week, we had Hebrew school.
HEIFETZ: After school?
HERRMANN: Ya ā€“ Wednesdays ā€“ there was no school so between two and four, we had to go toā€¦to cheder and Sunday morning from nine to 12, we had to go also. They had a beautiful synagogue, so the people came from around, you know. There were small towns around ā€“ they came for service and the children came to school too.
HEIFETZ: You enjoyed yourselves?
HERRMANN: Oh yes. They had a beautiful ā€“ was not a rabbi ā€“ I donā€™t know what you call it, but probably was a rabbi. He did all the functions what a rabbi did. He was a cantor. He was a hassan and whatever, you know, he buried when, he married when ā€“ he was a shochet you know, Bar Mitzvah and everything, soā€¦
HEIFETZ: There were no Bas Mitzvahs?
HERRMANN: No, never heard of it till lately, you know. Never heard of it. (PAUSES) So I had a normal childhood. Iā€¦in fact, I was the only child in my family for four years so I had everything that, (PAUSES) you know, what I wantedā€¦only grandchild and spoiled.
HEIFETZ: (LAUGHTER) Were your grandparents in your town?
HERRMANN: My fatherā€™s stepmother lived in the town, but my motherā€™s parents lived on the border from Luxembourg so we went every vacation to my grandma, you know, to them. So that time you could. There was a river in betweenā€¦one part was German and across the river was Luxembourg. So that, before Hitler, you could just cross the river, over the bridge, and then you were in Luxembourg, ya know. There was no different but later on, in Hitlerā€™s time, you had to have papers to go over there. So all of a sudden you couldnā€™t go anymore.
HEIFETZ: So then you didnā€™t get to see your grandparents?
HERRMANN: My grandfather died when I was 12 and my grandmother she just died before they were deported. (PAUSES) So when the war, so ā€™36, I didnā€™t want to stay anymore in Cochem. I went to Trier. Thatā€™s a bigger town so there were more Jews there, you knowā€¦Jewishā€¦Jews. So I found a familyā€¦I took care of children and I could stay with them. I stayed with them a year and a half. Soā€¦and I could go on all the functions from the Jewish organizations and something I enjoyed. People went to Israel. There was some people living in the house and they said, ā€œI have an aunt in Luxembourg and she wants somebody like a companion. Her husband just died. Would you go there?ā€ I grabbed it. I said, ā€œOh, sure.ā€ Everybody wanted to go to Luxembourg, you know, there was a lot of young people there, Jewish young people from Germany. The only thing you could go, if somebody sponsored you, you know. Otherwise you couldnā€™t get in or you had to have a lot of money, to live from your money. (PAUSES) You had to haveā€¦to work…you had to get a permission to work. You only could ā€“ to get to permission for work, to work, nobody else wanted to doā€¦to go in the household and there a lot ofā€¦See, the husband was there too and I didnā€™t know that. So you only could do ā€“ the boys went to farmers ā€“ got permission to go to farmers, so there were a lot of young people there. So we enjoyed it too. We stayed there till, in ā€™40, May fourth I guess, even on that day the Nazis came. So, but in the meantime, my parents moved to my grandmotherā€™s and where they lived, they built a Seigfried Line and the whole town had to leave. And they took ā€˜em all close to Berlin. They stayed there for two years, but in the meantime, the Goyims could come back, but not the Jewish people. But eventually they could come back and they went to Trier. From there they were all shipped away. So when the Germans came in, the 10th of May, the people where I was working there, they left for France.
HEIFETZ: And at this time, you were 20 years old?
HERRMANN: Yes, I was just 20 at that time. They wanted to take me along. I said, ā€œWhatā€™s the use to go along. I only have a German pass. I donā€™t even get to the border. They will take me alrightā€¦they see on the German passport ā€“ the J, the Jew ā€“ and the last, and the middle name was ā€œSarah.ā€ You know, every Jewish girl had the name ā€œSarah.ā€ I guess you know that, soā€¦
HEIFETZ: And the boys had name ā€œIsrael?ā€
HERRMANN: Yes, ya ā€“ whatā€™s the use to ā€“ Iā€™m not going along, I will stay. And around the corner from me was a girlfriend of mine and she said, ā€œIā€™m not going either ā€“ I will stay too.ā€ Her people went too. So we went ā€“ stayed in the house where I was working. It was a big house and the Jewish community at that time there were a lotā€¦aā€¦uh, lot of people there from Vienna ā€“ from Austria. But they couldnā€™t work, you know. The Jewish Federation or somebody took care of ā€˜em and they stayed in a hotel. But the German took the hotel room, so they had to make room for them people. So, they put the whole house was full of Jews. (LAUGHTER) So we stayed there for allā€¦nobody bothered us ā€“ about for six months.
HEIFETZ: How many of you?
HERRMANN: Only about ā€“ two girlfriends of mine ā€“ maybe three. We were in one room and two couples I guess ā€“ thatā€¦maybe some more. I donā€™t know. So, anyway nobody bothered us.
HEIFETZ: What did you do for money?
HERRMANN: Weā€¦girlfriendā€¦we found jobs. We worked, household again, you know. Some left ā€“ some came back ā€“ some stayed, you know. But youā€¦from Austria there they got paid fromā€¦from the Jewishā€¦I think at that time it was SRā€¦whatever it was, you know, itā€™sā€¦So they got paid. So we worked. So we could stay in the house. We didnā€™t have to pay rent or nothing. But I stillā€¦I donā€™t ā€“ I forgot who paid theā€¦theā€¦the light and the electricity. So I didnā€™t know what happened there. So maybe just nobody paid. (LAUGHTER) So, once of the sudden, we had to get out of there.
HEIFETZ: How did you know that?
HERRMANN: So they came and by dinner then, we had to get out.
HEIFETZ: Did the soldiers come to the house?
HERRMANN: No, no. I guess from the Jewish things, they came. So weā€¦a couple living there, and they went to America and they bought some stuff from Europe, and they put an ad in the paper ā€“ which we didnā€™t know ā€“ to send things ā€“ and they got wind of it ā€“ so we had to get out of there.
HEIFETZ: So you found this out by Jewishā€¦
HERRMANN: Ya.
HEIFETZ: ā€¦publications?
HERRMANN: So then we stayed till the 10th of May. A lot of people, you know, most of them left. There werenā€™t too many Jewish people, but the one who left, every few weeks, we got an order ā€“ we had to leave. We had a very nice rabbi, fairly young rabbi. He was from Austria and everytime the time came we had to leave, he went to the Gestapo. And the first time we went there, there was a guy sitting there ā€“ he went to school with. He knew him. He always gave him a little extension. And the next time we went there, that guy wasnā€™t there anymore. So, I guess they got wind of it, or whatever. So we were in a transport, bus load. I donā€™t know, maybe 30 or even more with two SS with what you call it? They were sitting there with rifles. And they took us. They told us they would take us to Southernā€¦to France. And we went to Paris the first night and we stayed in a hotel. (PAUSES) And then the next morning they took us on ā€“ that time France was partitioned. Part was occupied, one part wasnā€™t. So they told us they would take us on theā€¦on the border, and would put us on the train, and then we should go wherever we want to. And if they would come and arrest us, we should tell me we would go to Israel. So we were debating where should we go when we were on that train. So we decided maybe we go to Marseilles ā€“ thatā€™s a port. Maybe we find a boat, you know, just a boat and go, you know. Maybe we find a boat and go somewhere, you know, couldā€¦
HEIFETZ: Did you have money with you? Did youā€¦?
HERRMANN: No, all we could take was 150 marks that time. Thatā€™s all we could take. Thatā€™s all what we had. Soā€¦
HEIFETZ: Did you have belongings with you?
HERRMANN: What did we have much, you know, just a few clothes. You know you couldnā€™t ā€“ you couldnā€™t take much. Thatā€™s all what we had, everybody few clothes, you know, suitcase, thatā€™s all. It was my girlfriend and she had a brother was with us, few young people, boys from where we knew, you know. So we, then we decided on the way we go to Marseilles. When we got to Marseilles, it was like here, the train ā€“ it drove inā€¦like the train station here ā€“ all the way in. (PAUSES) We werenā€™t used to that, you know. In Europe ā€“ Germany ā€“ stations are all outside. You go out and youā€™re outside, you know, but here the train drove in a hole. Next, and there was a hotel on the one side, restaurant, whatever. And then we got out of the, we werenā€™t sitting all together so we, in a few compartments, so that we shouldnā€™tā€¦so when we got out of the train, we saw police picked four people up already ā€“ four boys ā€“ said, ā€œOh my God, that starts already.ā€ I had an uncle ā€“ brother of my mother ā€“ lived in Nice. So when I was in the station, Iā€¦I wrote a card, ā€œIā€™m in Marseilles.ā€ I donā€™t know what happened, maybe take care of my luggage, whatever happened. So I donā€™t know if they take us, or whatever. Some are picked up already andā€¦and in that ā€“ that was the station or hotel had two entrances. One takes you to the outside, and one to the station. And we were sitting in the restaurant there ā€“ a few of theā€¦the guys got up and wentā€¦went out and didnā€™t come back. I said, ā€œThe heck ā€“ where theyā€™re going? Letā€™s do the same thing.ā€ So one after the other got out, went out. Marseilles the station is all the way up the hill. We go all the way down steps, so it was night ā€“ where should we go? We were tired. We couldnā€™t stand up anymore. We were three dayā€¦three days on the way.
HEIFETZ: Did you eat?
HERRMANN: I donā€™t know. We took some sandwiches along ā€“ thatā€™s all. I, you know what we could take along. So we ate some sandwiches, maybe a little food. I donā€™t even know anymore. So maybe we had a cup coffee in the restaurant in the station. So then we found a hotel, around that, you know, that it was not a very good neighborhood. So we didnā€™t notice it. Anyway we found a hotel, says ā€œOpen.ā€ So we went in and got a room and at least we were, overnight gone. In the morning we went out, and we found the other one, walking (LAUGHTER) around there too. So we found most of ā€˜em together again. So somebody said, ā€œI found out ā€“ I talked to somebody ā€“ there is a Jewish committee here. Maybe we could go there and see whatā€™s what.ā€ So we wentā€¦they showed us to theā€¦they knew where it was. So we went with them and sure enough, there was a Jewish committee and it was like a ā€¦like a barracks ā€“ it said ā€œhotelā€ but it was like a barracks forā€¦and the shipsā€¦ship came in for the crew to sleep, you knowā€¦stacked up beds. So we went in and they had a kitchen there. So we got somethingā€¦we had to stand in line at least to get something warm to eat. So I donā€™t know what it was anymore. It looked like peas but it was big. So I didnā€™t like it, but we ate it anyway. (LAUGHTER) So, while we were standing in line there, my girlfriend said, ā€œLooks like it is a cousin of mine there, second cousin of mine.ā€ So and sure enough, it was aā€¦it was her. And I told her I know of a friend of my grandfather he had a daughter in Marseilles but I wouldnā€™t know what her married name is. She said, ā€œI know who it is and heā€™s there too, Mr. Tom. I take you to ā€˜em.ā€ So we went there and he said, ā€œI find you jobs.ā€ So he found my girlfriend and me jobs in a household.
HEIFETZ: Did they ask when you went to get the job if you were Jewish?
HERRMANN: He knows, you know, that he only took us for Jewish people, you know. The first job I had was a Turkishā€¦Turkish family. She couldnā€™t German ā€“ I couldnā€™t French so it was (LAUGHTER) I couldnā€™t stay there, you know, we couldnā€™tā€¦
HEIFETZ: Communicate.
HERRMANN: Communicate, you know. So I said, I went back to Mr. Tom, ā€œIā€¦I canā€™t stay there. I donā€™t know what to do. She donā€™t know what to tell me, so it wonā€™t work.ā€ He said, ā€œI know somebody else, that is aā€¦heā€™s from Paris, but he speaks German. He is from Alsace-Lorraine. Heā€™s a lawyerā€¦He was a famous lawyer, maybe theyā€™re looking for somebody.ā€ So I went there. They had five girlsā€¦five children. So I worked there for a while. He spoke German, but she couldnā€™t either, but we could, you know.
HEIFETZ: And they were Jewish?
HERRMANN: They were Jewish, ya. They came from Paris. Theyā€¦they were, you know, refugees also. But he opened a practice there. He helped people who were in Gurs in the concentration camps, at that timeā€¦people ā€“ they had papers ā€“ they could go to America, you know. They was still transportation going, you know. So he had the people. So some people came there. So I guess theā€¦somebody moved from the camp and they could come out and pay theā€¦he went with them to American Consul and get the papers. So I worked there for a while. What happened then, the friend where we met on that organization ā€“ so we found a room. We rented a room. I said to my girlfriend, ā€œAs long as I have money, I wonā€™t stay hereā€¦stacked up.ā€ One side was a man, you know. It was really ā€“ there were a lotā€¦at that time there were a lot of Spaniards there ā€“ from the Revolution of ā€™36 ā€“ a lot of Spaniards there too. Once of a sudden, they disappeared. So then it was full of Jews from all over. It was like a ā€“ I donā€™t know ā€“ people were waiting for papers to go somewhere or some were the men there in concentration camp and the women were thereā€¦aā€¦it was a mess!
HEIFETZ: No privacy at all?
HERRMANN: No, none whatsoever. So my girlfriend, another friend, we rented a room. But it was not the best room either. But at least we had our own room. So we worked. Then later on we went a little bit better. We went in a different street, but the only thing, you could disappear was in the worse ā€“ worse part of the town, you know, because once of a sudden myā€¦I had papers. So we could get papers that time from the French. Every six months we had to renew it and after the first six months, they didnā€™t renew. They told me there were enough people here. I should go somewhere else. So they asked me ā€“ I couldnā€™t tell ā€˜em I was working, ā€˜cause youā€™re not supposed to ā€“ so since you have money, you can go somewhere else too.
HEIFETZ: Not your girlfriend?
HERRMANN: No, just mine. So I donā€™t know what the reason was. So anyway, she said to me, ā€œWhy donā€™t forget about it and live without papers? What can they do, so worse can happen, they can take us and put us in a camp.ā€ So thatā€™s what I did. So I stayed without papers, so, but it still wasā€¦still unoccupied. It still was French then. But then they started to pick people up, you know, mostly men. There was aā€¦a camp, a working camp not too far from Marseilles.
HEIFETZ: Whoā€™s demanding all of the papers and all if it was unoccupied Germany ā€“ I mean French?
HERRMANN: Of course the Frenchā€¦the Frenchā€¦the Frenchā€¦French, so they didnā€™t want that many strangers around there, I guess, I donā€™t know.
HEIFETZ: It wasnā€™t only directed at the Jews then?
HERRMANN: No, no. No, they didnā€™t know I wasā€¦I didnā€™t, had no, no, Jew on there thenā€¦
HEIFETZ: It was simply foreign?
HERRMANN: Yeah, foreigners. Thatā€™s what it was. It was special for foreigners where they had to go, you know.
HEIFETZ: I see.
HERRMANN: Protector ā€“ thatā€™s what they called them. And they took all the boys, and took them in theā€¦by the time they hadā€¦they got ration cards. See I couldnā€™t get my ration cards. I had to buy ā€˜em on the black market. You had to show your papers when you get the ration cards. Soā€¦
HEIFETZ: Where did you get black market?
HERRMANN: Oh you could get black market all over. Always somebody there that would help if you payā€¦
HEIFETZ: How did you find the people?
HERRMANN: Where you worked. They helped you, you know. I later onā€¦we worked with Gentile people, you know, and it was occupied. The people we knew ā€“ the Jewish people left then also, you know when the Germans came in. Once all of the sudden, my girlfriend and I were the only ones there what we knew, so she worked for a gentile woman. She was very nice. And I worked for a gentile woman. There was a organization like itā€¦dispenser, like a clinic. It was I think, you know, it was from Americans paid, or whatever, I donā€™t know. There was a girl. She had a baby. She said, ā€œYou better take care of the baby.ā€ I said, ā€œSure I would.ā€ So she helped us get the cards and I did some laundry for other people. I washed and I cleaned and I did everything. Then the Germans came. So somebody told me ā€“ you have no papers. I triedā€¦I, if you want to, you can get a falseā€¦false papers that youā€™re French.
HEIFETZ: Excuse me ā€“ when you, when you were in unoccupied France, what did you do about keeping up with your religious life?
HERRMANN: That time we could go to synagogue, you know. There was a temple, you know, it was Sephardica, you could go to temple. We went on the holidays to temple.
HEIFETZ: Did you keep kosher?
HERRMANN: How could you keep? We glad something to eat, you know, nothing kosher anymore. That was out. But we always could get matzot, so I never ate breadā€¦always could get matzot. The only thing you had to give double ration from your bread card to get matzot. You could get two poundsā€¦two pounds of matzot, and you have to get four points bread cards. But I always managed to find them so thatā€™s the only thing I kept. I never ate bread onā€¦
HEIFETZ: What aboutā€¦whenā€¦oh well, you didnā€™t go to a mikvah anyway?
HERRMANN: No ā€“ I wasnā€™t married. No use to go to a mikvah. I donā€™t even know where the mikvah were anyways. So I donā€™t know if the Sephardicā€¦they have different customs. So one time we had to stay at the hotel where, the room where we hadā€¦somebody told us get out of there ā€“ there will be aā€¦they go from house to house and look for people. So we didnā€™t know where to go. It was late at night. We still didnā€™t know where to go. So my girlfriend said, ā€œLetā€™s goā€¦go in that temple.ā€ So we went to theā€¦They had a Jewish rabbi and he lived and the caretaker lived next to the temple. So we went in there ā€“ we said, ā€œWe have no place to go overnight.ā€ The only place you can go, you can stay and sleep in the library. So we stayed in night ā€“ in the library, and Iā€™m telling you, that was the worst night in my life. There were pictures hanging from all the rabbis, you knowā€¦life-size pictures, you know ā€“ light from the outside shown in. Iā€™m telling you it was awful. So every time you hear the noise, he said, ah uh, now theyā€™re coming in here too. So we just stayed there one night there. Then we find where I was working, the woman was very nice. She said, ā€œIf you want to, you can sleep on the kitchen floor.ā€ So my girlfriend and I, we slept, oh, about four months on her kitchen floor. Stayed at night on her kitchen floor.
HEIFETZ: That was a very courageous thing for her to do.
HERRMANN: Ya ā€“ she was a gentile woman, so weā€¦
HEIFETZ: She must have liked you.
HERRMANN: There were houses that were like ā€“ a big apartment ā€“ like a complex and you could go from one house, over the roof, to the other house, you know, a big complex. So in the morning we went up on the roof and went on the other house downstairs. In the evening we went up there so we had to leave early in the morning before they got in the kitchen, you know. But it was a stone floor! So we stayed there a while till it quiet down a little bit and somebody told us there to see the Armenian were very good to us. See, they went through the same trouble. They knew ā€“ so we found an Armenian. I tell youā€¦the worstā€¦when we went to Marseilles, I showed Willy where we lived. He didnā€™t know how we could live. But we did. So the Armenian people had, oh, usually two, three people in two rooms, you know, they were notā€¦So that there was an older couple ā€“ they had one room. It was here was their room and here was a room that was like a dark roomā€¦no windows ā€“ just a window to the hall. Next door, another Armenian couple. But they knew we were staying there. And one night they came ā€“ the Gestapo ā€“ from room to room and said their, ā€œOpen up, open up,ā€ and they told ā€˜em thereā€™s nobody in there that belongs to them ā€“ just a storage. Iā€™m telling you, we were outside. I tell you our hearts went like that! And in the morning when we came down, all the ā€“ everybody practically we knew, were gone. Nobody was left anymore. So weā€¦we stayedā€¦
HEIFETZ: Must of been very grateful to those people?
HERRMANN: Yes, we paid, you know, not that we, you know, but anyway it was risky for them too, you know. It was a little room. Oh notā€¦not even as big as dining room here. There was bed in there. We slept two and my girlfriend and I we slept in one bed ā€“ a little table ā€“ I say two chairs. It was all, hooks on the wall where we could hang out the clothes. Outside was a toilet, of course, for the wholeā€¦whole floor for everybody. There was a table and water, so, for everybody tooā€¦everybody now and then took water. But sometimes they didnā€™t have water, you know. They even shut the water off. We had to go down on the street and take water. And if the electricity was low ā€“ so whatever they had to say, they cut the water off, quite often. So anyway, we survived.
HEIFETZ: How long were you there?
HERRMANN: Well, I was there from January ā€™41. I left for America ā€™46.
HEIFETZ: You stayed in that room forā€¦?
HERRMANN: No, no, no. So thenā€¦the Americans or whatever, there was a bombardment. The haupt street was ka-put. The bombsā€¦it was on a Saturday morning and I had off. I wasnā€™t working that Saturday. Once in a week, you could to where public bathing houses, you know. You could take a shower, or whatever. They were only two days open because they had to save the coal, you know. So that Saturday morning, I went in the shower ā€“ I was debating ā€“ I want to go to beauty shop ā€“ get a haircut. I went in the beauty shop. There were too many people. She couldnā€™t take me, so I forget about it and I go, and then the sirens started to go. I couldnā€™t ā€“ so I ran to other house and I stayed until it was over. And the room where I stayed, the whole plaster, everything ā€“ came down. Oh a lot of people got killedā€¦in the thousands. So the beauty shop where I wanted to goā€¦disappeared. Was gone too. So I was lucky. (LAUGHTER)
HEIFETZ: And where were you when that happened?
HERRMANN: So I went another street and I stayed there in aā€¦in aā€¦in a house, you know, in the door and waited till, till it was over.
HEIFETZ: All by yourself?
HERRMANN: Ya, so then I didnā€™t know where my girlfriend was. She was working that day. So she went looking for me ā€“ I looking for her, you know. Finally weā€¦we caught up with each other.
HEIFETZ: You were very good friends?
HERRMANN: Ya. (PAUSES) So in the meantime, the boys were in camp, and they were all deported, so we never heard anymore. It was a brother was in there and some friends.
HEIFETZ: Were you able to contact your family during all of this?
HERRMANN: When I was in theā€¦not my parentsā€¦no, that was out. So I didnā€™t even know where they were. So when I ā€“ when I was in unoccupied ā€“ my aunt, they lived in Luxembourg ā€“ my sister was living with them. They lived on the border from France and when the war started in ā€™40 and the Germans came in, the whole town left. So they were fighting in that town. In the meantime, there were goings on ā€“ maybe two, three family, Jewish people ā€“ my aunt they stayed there to work in Red Cross and once in a while, I could hear, but once of a sudden, I didnā€™t hear from them anymore either. That was in ā€™42 so they took them somewhere. I donā€™t know where they took them.
HEIFETZ: Your sister too?
HERRMANN: Ya. She was living there. My aunt, she had only one daughter. She was 14 years old when they operated on her and decided it was not worth it. I donā€™t know what she had ā€“ but she died. But then my aunt she didnā€™t care anymore. So maybe they could of saved herself too like some of them, you know. But Iā€¦I imagine they didnā€™t care anymore, so also deported. It was also in ā€™42, and I had, my mother had another brother in Belgium. They had a little boy ā€“ so in ā€™42 they disappeared too. So nobody heard anything anymore from them. So in the meantime, I got a false French card.
HEIFETZ: How were you lucky enough to get that?
HERRMANN: Cost me a lot of money.
HEIFETZ: Not luck, hard work.
HERRMANN: Ya. So the girl where I took the babyā€¦where I took care of the baby, the gentile girlā€¦in fact she was engaged to a Jewish boy and got killed also ā€“ she had the baby. So anyway, she told me, ā€œI know a girl from the underground, maybe I get you in touch with her ā€“ maybe she can help.ā€ (PAUSES) So she told me, ā€œMeet her there and there you will find her, she has a paper in her hand, or whatever, so we usually met at the post office.ā€ And I met her at the post office, the first thing when she saw me, she said, ā€œWhat kind of identification do you have?ā€ And I showed her my card and she said, ā€œOh my God were you lucky nobody asked for it. Thatā€™s the most false card I have ever seen. I get you new one.ā€ So she got me a new cardā€¦a good false card. (LAUGHTER) So you were lucky thatā€¦that nobody ask you for it. You know that time you couldnā€™t go without cards. Once in a while theā€¦the guys came in the streetcars or whatever, they ask for identification, you know.
HEIFETZ: Did you carry it with you at all times?
HERRMANN: All the times. So then she gave me one. But I didnā€™t have to pay for that so sheā€¦she tried to give it to me, so from the underground, but I never knew her name so she never told her name. So ever so often, I met her. Once in a while she gave me money too, for my friend and me. But she never toldā€¦told us her name. She only told the first name, but I didnā€™t even know anymore the first name. But once a sudden she didnā€™t came anymore, so I donā€™t know if they had taken her or whatever. So we stayed ā€“ then we got another room in that house ā€“ the people what lived in the one room ā€“ they moved to Cannes. So it has a little better room. At least it had a window. So we stayed in thereā€¦I stayed in there, till I went to America. But after the war ā€“ quite often, we always had to buy our ration cards, seeā€¦see could ofā€¦we were afraid with a false card we couldnā€™t get our ration cards.
HEIFETZ: Your friend had a false card also?
HERRMANN: Sure. We all had false cards. So we always said, but we always find people who helpedā€¦we had whole bunch of cardsā€¦red cardsā€¦there were tickets ā€“ for cigarettes, or tickets for wine. You know the French drink a lot of wine. So which we didnā€™t use and the cigarettes we didnā€™t use. So we exchanged around. We always managed to get something else for that. So weā€¦but I have to say the Armenians there were very, very good to us.
HEIFETZ: You know a lot of people said noā€¦no one was willing to help. But you had maybe four different experiences with gentiles who were extremely helpful. Do you think that there was something about you?
HERRMANN: I donā€™t know, but the most of them came ā€“ see the Armenians they went through the same the Jews went through, you know. They had to leave and they killed them, you know. So they knew what ā€“ howā€¦how toā€¦and the other gentiles they came, they came from Alsace-Lorraine also. They didnā€™t stay with Hitler. They were some kind of refugees too.
HEIFETZ: There were people who really didnā€™t believe in Hitler?
HERRMANN: Ya, ya. So thatā€™s the gentile I knew, you know, who came from Alsace-Lorraine and helped us. So, in fact, one woman she helped us. I guess she dealsā€¦she dealt in black market and she helped us to get (LAUGHTER) so whatever weā€¦So but anyway, she was nice enough, sheā€¦we could sleep in her kitchen, you know, for couple months.
HEIFETZ: Whatā€¦when you were living, I keep thinking about that little room, that you were living in with your friend. Whatā€¦what did you talk about? What did you do when you werenā€™t working?
HERRMANN: We were ā€“ I donā€™t ā€“ I donā€™t even know what we were, you know. Not much to do. Sometimes we went to walk. We went to the ocean, you know, Marseilleā€™s right on the ocean. So we went intoā€¦we walked sometimes. We were afraid to go in the bus or streetcars. We walked in the morning to work and we walked most of the time home. In fact, even to save a nickel, you know. So if the weather was nice, but sometimes it was so terribly cold, we didnā€™t have any heat in there. Iā€™m telling you we went with the coats in bed. We put the coats on and the gloves and stockings and we laid, and went to bed. It was cold wind there, you know. We had noā€¦no heat in there ā€“ nothing toā€¦
HEIFETZ: Did you talk about your families, orā€¦?
HERRMANN: Sure. So my girlfriend had all my ā€“ from my relatives names, in case something should happen to me. So she should write to ā€˜em, whatever, you know. So, but she never wanted to come to America. So, in fact, she passed away already. Sheā€™s not living anymore. So I gave her, you know, she knew all my family and everythingā€¦the names, in case something should get separated, you know. So in the meantime my relatives in Nice, they left too, for one night and then they went to Switzerland. So they had a horrible time too. So they were in camp in Switzerland. So my uncle was German and my aunt was French, so they had to leave through the barbed wire also.
HEIFETZ: You, but you saidā€¦Iā€™m, Iā€™m amazed, you said that while you were working, you would go and get your hair cut.
HERRMANN: Yeah you had to go and get a haircut once in a while or something, you know. So the people around there where we lived, they knew me, you know, whatever. So they saw us long enough.
HEIFETZ: But you obviously still cared very much about your appearance?
HERRMANN: Oh sure, oh sure. You had to take care of yourself, you know. You had to take a bath once in a while ā€“ not every day like here ā€“ people donā€™t do that like they do here, you know. So once in a week you couldā€¦could go in the public, whenever theyā€¦they had the coal. I donā€™t know what we paid for it ā€“ couple of francs or whatever. So I think sometimes they give you, you couldnā€™t even ā€“ you didnā€™t even have soap. Was likeā€¦like sand, you know. So you were lucky once in a while, you find a piece of soap, you know. With that you couldnā€™t wash your hair, you know. It was like sand. So you had to go somewhere once in a while ā€“ get a hairā€¦get your hair washed, real, you know.
HEIFETZ: It wasnā€™t as much for vanity as it was for cleanliness?
HERRMANN: Ya, so because with that soap you had, was like, even in the shower, it didnā€™t come out, you know. So you needed a haircut once in a while otherwise, you know. Oh sure before, you know, before Hitler, you could go to movie ā€“ before the occupation, you know, then to the movie on Saturday, whatever, you know. You didnā€™t have to be afraid, you know.
HEIFETZ: Did you have boyfriends?
HERRMANN: No. I had some friends, but not what you call boyfriends, you know. In fact, I had some friends, they were in camp not too far from Marseilles. He was supposed to come to St. Louis also. He had a sister here. So we always were talking whenā€¦when we meet in St. Louis again, you know. But he didnā€™t make it. But I knew him from before the camp, you know. In fact he was a relative of my auntā€™s soā€¦but I met him again in southern France.
HEIFETZ: Must of seemed like aā€¦an amazingly small world?
HERRMANN: Yea, a lotā€¦lotā€¦lot of boys we met, we knew from Luxembourg. You know they all, once of a sudden they all were in that camp. So twice a week my girlfriend and me we bought bread. They didnā€™t get enough to eat there either, you know. We bought bread and took it. They came out in the evening and there was a little tavern or whatever, so we met there andā€¦and gave them the bread.
HEIFETZ: It was, uh, what kind of a camp then ā€“ just a labor camp?
HERRMANN: Some kind of labor camp, ya. So it was from the French. It was not from German. But later on the German took ā€˜em all. So they had to work on the street or whatever. I donā€™t know.
HEIFETZ: And no one stopped you from going to give themā€¦?
HERRMANN: No ā€“ we said itā€™s our boyfriends, you know, it was my girlfriendā€™s brother was there and twice a week we took the bus. Was an hourā€™s drove by the streetcar. In the afternoon, when we were through with work, we took some bags. We went and got some bread, you knowā€¦got 200 grams breadā€¦thatā€™s a little piece whatā€¦what is thatā€¦you know special for men who works, even forā€¦for somebody else if you donā€™t have nothing else. So we took the bread and we went over there one day the campā€¦they were gone.
HEIFETZ: Must have been a terrible day for your friend especially.
HERRMANN: So she never heard of them no more and some escaped. So I knew two boys fromā€¦from Vienna. Once of a sudden we saw ā€˜em again, so they escaped. So they didnā€™tā€¦didnā€™t even go along or whatever. How they escaped, I donā€™t know, but they were there.
HEIFETZ: Did she give up hope, orā€¦?
HERRMANN: So she always thought maybe heā€™s somewhere. But she had a sister in middle France. Her husband wasnā€™t Jewishā€¦was American, but nobody knew she was Jewish. So she all of a sudden maybe we would try to go to her, you know, but so she had a little garden, that sister. Quite often sheā€™d send us a package of potatoes. In fact, she was the one who told us, ā€œDonā€™t stay in your rooms tonight.ā€ She came special from her husband worked on the railroad station so she got cheaper railroad. One day she came, she said, ā€œIā€¦I heard from somebody, they should be, they come and take people away, donā€™t stay in your rooms.ā€ And where my girlfriend worked, the Jewish people, the first job ā€“ they left too on the border forā€¦for vacation. So she had the key. She said, ā€œYou know what, we go and sleep there?ā€ So we went there and slept at their house. So we sleptā€¦

Tape 1 - Side 2

ā€¦around and then later on, we couldnā€™t go in the synagogue anymore either. It was out occupation. Nobody went in anymore. It was closed up. So nobody went near it.
HEIFETZ: Did you celebrate the high holidays anyway?
HERRMANN: Before the occupation, ya.
HEIFETZ: No, I mean even after the synagogue was closed up.
HERRMANN: We knew it was Yom Tov so we tried not to work or whatever, but Yom Kippur we kept, yah. I tell you we had a friend there ā€“ she was Gentile, but she was married to a Jew. And her husband was in camp and he escaped from, and went to Switzerland, but she didnā€™t know where he was. She always knew when the Yom Tovs were. She always told us. (LAUGHTER) I donā€™t know how she knew it, she had a daughter was living in the States. She was married here. She wrote to her through the Red Cross or whatever. I donā€™t know but she always knew. When we saw her, she always said, ā€œYou know then and then is Yom Tov,ā€ you know. She had a big cross hanging around her, you know, during the occupation. As soon as the Americans were in, the cross came off and the Star of David came on. (LAUGHTER)
HEIFETZ: You mean she really was Jewish?
HERRMANN: Sheā€¦she was converted. She was a Gentile girl, but I think sheā€¦her husbandā€¦she came from Germany, her in-laws must have been very religious. She always said she had to go in the mikvah. So she knew, she knew the usual expression and everything. So she had a little apartment. She had a young son. She had something hanging, you know, if somebody should come in, you know, she wasnā€™t Jewish. Soon as the liberation ā€“ everything came off. (LAUGHTER) Everything Jewish came on.
HEIFETZ: That was a quick conversion.
HERRMANN: Ya.
HEIFETZ: In fact, a reconversion.
HERRMANN: I donā€™t know what happen to her after I went to America. Iā€¦they probably went to their daughter. They came from Belgium. They were from Germany and then they fled to Belgium and they went toā€¦to Marseilles.
HEIFETZ: When you were living with your girlfriend, what would you do about buying things? Would you be able to go into regular stores and buy things?
HERRMANN: You know, youā€¦you had to haveā€¦had to have cards for everything. You couldnā€™t even buy a pair of stockings orā€¦or panty without a card. You know, everything was rationed.
HEIFETZ: But as long as you had a false card, you could.
HERRMANN: Ya, if you bought the cards you could go and with the card and buy it, you know.
HEIFETZ: What did you miss the most of things you couldnā€™t have?
HERRMANN: Iā€¦I donā€™t even know. Sweets I guess, piece of chocolate or something like that, you know. We had saccharin, you know, not the same as sugar, you know. Couldnā€™t get sugarā€¦chocolate, most of those things, you know. When the Americans came in, we were so hungry we ate so much of the sweet you couldnā€™t see it anymore. We were like ā€“ I donā€™t know what to sayā€¦like aā€¦they got, they had the doughnuts, you know, we could get. Since then, Iā€¦I never ate a doughnut since then ā€“ I cannot see them anymore. (LAUGHTER) We ate so many doughnuts, you know. We wereā€¦we were so hungry for something, you know. We couldnā€™t, so our ration cards, you know we had a little grocery store on the street. There was an Armenian alsoā€¦once in a while he gave us some vegetables, you know ā€“ two potatoes or whatever, you know. We couldnā€™t even cook. In the morning we had a pot. We put everything in one pot, and we took it to the baker. Cross the street was a bakery. Whenever they were through with baking, they put the pot in and then we came home in the evening ā€“ we went and picked the pot up and paid five cents or whatever, 10 cents for bake so, like stew, you know. So the only thing what we had, you could warm it up. We had someā€¦like a, like a, kerosene or something, you know ā€“ we had a little so just to warm it up or fix a cup of coffee or whatever.
HEIFETZ: But you couldnā€™t really cook?
HERRMANN: No, you couldnā€™t. So when we got something to cook, we put everything, you know, one pot and put it in ā€“ brought it to the bakery. Once in a while we got to eat where we were. But not, you know, everybody had ration cards.
HEIFETZ: Did you get together with the other people in the building?
HERRMANN: Nu, no, the most of them ā€“ downstairs was a restaurant. There was an Arab. They had a cook and he was from Corsica. And on that floor was a French women. She was ā€“ I donā€™t know ā€“ she was, most of the time not home. She had two rooms there and the floor where I lived was that Armenian couple. Another couple on the first floor was an Armenian couple with aā€¦with a girl that lived in one room and on the other side was an Armenian couple with two, three children. And upstairs, were Armenian couples so, you know, they didnā€™t need much room. So they made the beds in the morningā€¦in the evening, somewhere in the morning put them up and couldnā€™t see them. They lived in two rooms sometimes with three, four children. I guess thatā€™s so they could cook. Some of them, they had some gas, you know, them little Chineseā€¦little ā€œBacheseā€ or what you call it?
HEIFETZ: Hibachis?
HERRMANN: So they had them too and they put ā€˜em in the fireplace so they could cook something on that. But they were very, very primitive. So we werenā€™t spoiled.
HEIFETZ: No, no.
HERRMANN: So when we washed something, you hang ā€˜em out on the window, you know, we had a stick on the window mitā€¦with a twine on it, and you just dripped on the street. Everybody, when you washed, put it out on the window. (LAUGHTER) We had to wash once in a while, you know. Once in a while, I took it along and where I worked I had to do the laundry, so I washed it there, but most the time we washed and hung it out the window. Didnā€™t have much soap ā€“ no warm water either.
HEIFETZ: What was your friendā€™s name?
HERRMANN: Thekla.
HEIFETZ: T I?
HERRMANN: T H E K L A (PAUSES) So when theā€¦when theā€¦so we stayed together till the war was over.
HEIFETZ: Six years?
HERRMANN: Ya. And the people where she worked, they came back, they also went to Switzerland. And they came back, she said, ā€œNow the war isā€¦the war is over now ā€“ Iā€™m looking for husbands for you.ā€
HEIFETZ: The Gentile woman?
HERRMANN: No, no, no, she was Jewish. So I told her, ā€œLook for her, sheā€™s older than I. Iā€™m not staying. Iā€™m going to America.ā€
HEIFETZ: How much older was she?
HERRMANN: 12 years.
HEIFETZ: Thekla was 12 years older than you?
HERRMANN: Ya. (PAUSES) Soā€¦so I donā€™t know how we made it, but we made it.
HEIFETZ: Did you feel she was like an older sister to you?
HERRMANN: Sometimes she had more pep than I had, more courage than I had.
HEIFETZ: In what way?
HERRMANN: In fact she even wanted to goā€¦she said, ā€œLetā€™s goā€¦go to Switzerland. Pick up and go.ā€ I said, ā€œHow you ā€“ do you want to go to Switzerland? First place we donā€™t have the money and second how, we donā€™t even get out of town and they take us already. Why donā€™t we stay here and wait and see ā€“ not go through the trouble?ā€ (LAUGHTER) She said, ā€œYeah, yeah.ā€
HEIFETZ: She listened to you?
HERRMANN: She had a little bit, oh, maybe a few sheets but she had trousseau, you know, couple of sheets she said sheā€™d sell. ā€œI have money.ā€ I said, ā€œWhat do you want with the money? You donā€™t even get to the border. How do we get over there?ā€ So, so sheā€¦she really wanted to go, but it was not easy to get in there ā€“ how many got caught, you know on the borders. I said, ā€œWe will stay here and see what we can do.ā€ So one time the Germans came in, all the people we knew disappeared. You didnā€™t see anybody you knew anymore. Soon as the war was over, the next day, everybody you met on the street, you knew.
HEIFETZ: Amazing.
HERRMANN: Nobody told you anything. One didnā€™t trust the other.
HEIFETZ: So you never knew during all those six years that those people were in hiding like you were?
HERRMANN: No, no. Ya, they were in hiding somewhere but not in Marseilles. They went in smaller towns on the middle ofā€¦middle of France, you know. But nobody told you anything ā€“ they would leave or whatever. So one morning I think, right after theā€¦the war, in fact, when the ā€“ before the war ended, for two weeks, we stayed somewhere in a underground ā€“ in the basement, was the bombs were falling all over, Marseilles. Stayed somewhere in a oldā€¦in a old brewery.
HEIFETZ: In a what?
HERRMANN: Brewery.
HEIFETZ: Brewery?
HERRMANN: Brewery ā€“ one timeā€¦you know, in a cave, whatever. I think the whole street was in that brewery. I tell ya, we were in there, I think, for two weeks. We couldnā€™tā€¦couldnā€™t wash yourself. You couldnā€™t, oh, it was a mess! It was a mess and every time we tried to get out, go home, or do something, you knowā€¦clean up, theā€¦the sirens went again so we had to hide.
HEIFETZ: How did people go to the bathroom?
HERRMANN: There were some bathrooms, but you couldnā€™t get in. I donā€™t know. I really donā€™t know anymore. There was like aā€¦like a whole row of bathrooms, you know, from the brewery I suppose.
HEIFETZ: So there were bathrooms down there?
HERRMANN: Ya, but they were so dirty. In the end you couldnā€™t get in there anymore. You know, Iā€™m telling you, it wasā€¦that wasā€¦that was worse too, you know, to layā€¦to lay in that. So we took our mattress along and everything. We were laying in the basement. Every time we tried to get out you know, go home, at least clean up or what ā€“ soon as we got out, the sirens started in again ā€“ had to go for undercover, you know. So the first one we saw were African, first that came in the Coloredā€¦the African soldiers.
HEIFETZ: How did you feel when they came in?
HERRMANN: Oh my Godā€¦like newborn, you know. But stillā€¦and still the rations went onā€¦
HEIFETZ: After the war?
HERRMANN: Yeah, after the war. Right away, I wrote to my aunt here. She sentā€¦sent me some clothes. You know, we had nothing to wear anymore. You couldnā€™t buy anythingā€¦nothing was there either. Even ifā€¦we didnā€™t have the money in the first place ā€“ second place, we didnā€™t have ration cards enough for it. She sent me clothes and something to eat. So when I came to America, the only clothes I had, the ones she sends me.
HEIFETZ: How did she know where to send them?
HERRMANN: I gave her ā€“ the adā€¦I gave her the address. She had my address, so I didnā€™t change my address right after the war. When I got the papers so that I donā€™t haveā€¦so I didnā€™t want nothing lost again, you know. Since I hadā€¦once they tried to take me over in ā€™38, but I didnā€™t have nothing. They needed a signature from somebody here, but nobody want to sign it. Soā€¦but after the war so theā€¦they were able to do it themselves and there long enough here to be a citizen, you know. (PAUSES) (INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION BY HUSBAND)
HUSBAND: She always was a step ahead the Nazisā€¦all those yearsā€¦just a step ahead, you know.
HERRMANN: I donā€™t know, it was luck, or what?
HEIFETZ: It sounds like you were very smart about the way you handled things.
HERRMANN: I donā€™t know, but we were quite often scared. I have to say (PAUSES) youā€¦you have to be young, first place, to do it. I couldnā€™t do it any more now. You have to be young and unattached, you knowā€¦by yourself, notā€¦notā€¦to, to not worry about somebody you know. (PAUSES)
HEIFETZ: Can you tell me some more about Thekla?
HERRMANN: So after the war, her old boss we met up. In fact we met on Shavuos in the synagogue and she said, ā€œNow the war is over, we find ya some husbands.ā€ (PAUSES) So I told her, ā€œThekla is older. You try one for her but Iā€™m not staying here ā€“ Iā€™m going to America.ā€ So couple weeks later, she came and she said, ā€œI think I know ā€“ I want you to meet somebody.ā€ (To my girlfriend) So they met and they got married. They had one son.
HEIFETZ: Were you still there when they got married?
HERRMANN: Yeah, uh huh. So they got married in January ā€™46. Soā€¦
HEIFETZ: What was the wedding like?
HERRMANN: Oh it was not much, you know, not much. (PAUSES) So they even, they didnā€™t even get married by a rabbi. They got marriedā€¦see in Europe, you have to have two marriages. You have to go civil marriage or and another one, but the civil marriage that counts. So she only got married civil marriage. So, she was pregnant when I left. I left inā€¦in August ā€™46 and December they had a boy. But I think they had to marry with the rabbi, or the boy wouldnā€™t have been Jewish, or something. (LAUGHTER) So they had to marry again.
HEIFETZ: That must of left you really alone? If she wasā€¦
HERRMANN: Oh not really. I went there quite often. So you know Marseilles isnā€™t that big. It is a big town, but see, I have been working anyway, you know. And so weekends, I went there and I went home in the evening, or whatever. Sometimes I slept there. But I really wasnā€™t, you know, that alone. (PAUSES)
HEIFETZ: Can you describe her to me?
HERRMANN: Oh she wasā€¦she had a lot of guts too. I have to say, she was always pushing on. But afterā€¦after a while, she was ā€“ after she was married, she was like a different person, I donā€™t know. But aā€¦courage was gone. I donā€™t know what happened. Soā€¦so in fact, I met her son. We visited with her once first time we went over to Europe. And we visit her and the boy was a little boy. And I saw the boy again six years ago but both parents dead. He married the girl from ā€“ a very nice young man ā€“ he married the girl fromā€¦she came from Tunisia. The time when we saw ā€˜em he had three children already, so maybe he has more by now. So he had a very good job. Heā€¦he worked for the government. I was really surprised to seeā€¦really nice young man. (PAUSES)
So after she got married, I started, you know, to go almost a year to make the papersā€¦till I had everything together. You couldnā€™t get youā€¦your affidavit, your visa ā€“ whatever you need to come in here. You have to have aā€¦aā€¦transportation to come here. And it was very, very, very hard to getā€¦get transportation. There was no boats, only cargo boats. And I met a couple ā€“ theyā€¦they came from concentration camp. They were from Prague and her brother was in the American Army. By chance he was stationed in Marseilles. And I met them somewhere, I donā€™t know, in Jewish organization, or what. And they asked me if Iā€¦if I had time to go with them. They needed some papers from France from Marseilles that they lived there, whatever you need, you know, to getā€¦get out. (PAUSES) I said Iā€™ll be willing to interpret for you. I go with you, but Iā€™m trying to get my things in order too. But I cannot get transportation. Soā€¦and she told herā€¦her brother ā€“ they had almost everything ready to go. They lived, I think, only three months in Marseilles. In fact, they even got married in Marseilles. So sheā€¦she told her brother, so he said, ā€œIā€¦I try to get you transportation.ā€ So, and he went with me. See, it was at that time, American Express, or something. He said, ā€œSheā€™s myā€¦sheā€™s my fiancee. I hope you can…can get her passage too.ā€ So I guess he gave him cigarettes, whatever, I donā€™t know. So anyway, through him, he got theā€¦the passage. (PAUSES)
So sheā€¦Iā€¦Iā€¦ then I got aā€¦I was one practically the first one who left. I wasnā€™tā€¦I came with the cargo boat. We were 19 days on the way. It was a nice trip, you know. So we were 11 passengers on that boat. There were another Jewish couple. They were hidden somewhere too. They went to their daughter to New York. An old lady, she came from Theresienstadt. She went to her daughter to New York. There was another girl, I donā€™t know where she went andā€¦and two Russian ladies ā€“ they were living in Paris. She, and an old dog and she hadā€¦that was one the lady, I donā€™t know what she was. She had a companion with her. And then we had an American soldier with his war bride. An American, but he was born in France, he was on business. Then we had a Russian girl with a baby, she went to the babyā€™s father. And the first five days was great. You know, we were all starved. We ate and ate, you know and the service ā€“ the most beautiful ā€“ we ate. We had all our meals in the officersā€™ mess ā€“ really good things. But after the fifth day, got a little, the weather got bad and they had nothing in the boat. It starts shaking so everybodyā€¦nobody showed up for the meals anymore for a couple of days. And then, was a couple of days nice, so we were sitting on the deck in the afternoon. We really ā€“ was really like a nice vacation for everybody. But weā€¦we didnā€™t know where we would land. So two days before we were supposed to land, they told us we would land in Norfolk, West Virginia. And I only had $50.00. You could only take $50.00 out of France that time. And I was afraid I wouldnā€™t have enough money to get to St. Louis. So Iā€¦Iā€¦I had no idea what it would cost, you know. You had to go on the train, or whatever. I sent a telegram to my aunt here. ā€œIā€¦I donā€™t know if I have enough money and Iā€™m landing in Norfolk, West Virginia.ā€ And my aunt when she came here, she had like a boarding house and she had some Jewish boys living with her, and she knew one of them ā€“ they had relatives inā€¦in Norfolk. So she called right away that boy, and she said, ā€œWould you do me a favor? Call your cousin. My niece is on the boat and she doesnā€™t know if she has ā€“ she doesnā€™t have enough money there ā€“ be glad to send it back.ā€ So whenā€¦when we landed, the 19th, we left first of August ā€™46 and we landed the 19th. Then we got off the boat. First we couldnā€™t get off the boat for a while because the vet had to come and look at the dog before we could get off. So there were some people standing there and they asked, ā€œAre you there and there?ā€ And I saidā€¦I said, ā€œYes.ā€ And then the other couple so they started to talk and so they came from the same region. So they knew each otherā€¦the relatives, or whatever. So they took the couple and the old lady and meā€¦they took home with them, and we had supper there. The one who went to New York, they left that evening and I didnā€™t have noā€¦I had to spend the night with them. So I spend the night with ā€˜em. The next morningā€¦one of them they were in the cattle business alsoā€¦we had to go somewhere in the market by train ā€“ so I went partway with them. Then I guess it took 24 hours by train till I got here. So they was onā€¦on the station, and the station to pick me up, so it took me a while to get adjusted, you know. I was tired and worn out and all the new surroundings so I had aā€¦my uncle, he lived on a farm that time. So I spent a couple of days on the farm. And while I was there, my aunt called me. She said, ā€œIf you want to, you can have a job.ā€ I said, ā€œSure I want to.ā€ So I came backā€¦some friends of herā€¦they, so they asked me if I could sew on a sewing machine ā€“ on electric. I said, ā€œI can sew on a sewing machine, but I never saw electric sewing machine in my life.ā€ (LAUGHTER) So I went there and stayed there four years in the job. So I have to say theā€¦the girls were very nice. They showed me what to do and helped me, you know. I couldnā€™t muchā€¦didnā€™t know much about sewing. So I knew how to sew, you know, itā€™s just so nice. I stayed there a year before I got married and three years after I was married till we moved into our house. So it was a nice time. I enjoyed my job. So I didnā€™t have far to go. We lived that time on Waterman, near Skinker and I went to Euclidā€¦10 minutes the most. So then after a year, I met Willyā€¦not after a year, it was six weeks here when I met Willy.
HEIFETZ: How did you meet him?
HERRMANN: I had pictures. I told you before Iā€¦Iā€¦I had some friends and he had a sister here. And I had picture of him. So my aunt called, but in meantime the sister died already. So I never met his sister. And called the brother-in-law and said, if she want the pictureā€¦he can have it, you know. So Willy brought ā€˜emā€¦he had the car then. So thatā€™s when I met him. (LAUGHTER) Thatā€™s our brother-in-law now. He married the sister.
HEIFETZ: Oh ā€“ and how old were you then when you met?
HERRMANN: I was 26 when I came. And I was 27 when I got married. So he was my first date.
HEIFETZ: Really?
HERRMANN: Uh huh. I never forget it was the dayā€¦it was Yom Kippur evening ā€“ after fasting. (LAUGHTER)
HEIFETZ: That was some meal. (LAUGHTER)
HERRMANN: It was after Yom Kippur.
HEIFETZ: Were you nervous?
HERRMANN: No, not really. So, see we went to the same synagogue, you know. The Germans hadā€¦had their own service that time. We wereā€¦you knowā€¦quite a lot of people didnā€™t belong to anything. They couldnā€™t afford it too.
HERRMANN, W: Is this recorded?
HERRMANN: Yeah ā€“ they couldnā€™t afford to go to temple or synagogue, so they had their own Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur service.
HEIFETZ: Where was that?
HERRMANN: Bergerā€™s Funeral Home. When I came, it was already in the ā€“ in the cellar before ā€“ then later on, the for a while, we were in several years, in Rindskopf.
HERRMANN, W: Germans at that time had what we call a Hevrah.
HERRMANN: So you paid in that much very little, or when somebody died, or that you couldnā€™t afford it ā€“ they helped to pay for the funerals.
HERRMANN, W: So we had a cemetary.
HERRMANN: We have a memorial to the Holocaust ā€“ you should go and see it sometime ā€“ it is in front of the Yalem building. (PAUSES) So we had ā€“ so I met the way, he was in service then, so I went to service.
HEIFETZ: Where did you go on your first date?
HERRMANN: There was on Skinker, I never forget it, there was a little restaurant. It was aā€¦not on Skinker. (PAUSES) No, it was a big sign there Hyde Park. It was a barbecue. I donā€™t know what the name of it, but was there for a long timeā€¦isnā€™t there anymore. So when they asked me where did you go? I said, ā€œIn the hide-a-park.ā€ (LAUGHTER) We, we didnā€™t go out much because after Yom Kippur, everybodyā€™s worn out after Yom Kippur. Then after a year we got married. (PAUSES) And we got an apartment in the same house where my aunt lived on the third floor. So we lived there for three years, but since Willyā€™s business was out this way ā€“ was kind of hard for him to go all the way in town and we found a house here. Ever since we were living here.
HEIFETZ: And you learned English by goingā€¦?
HERRMANN: I went to night school. In the store where I worked, you know, a little bit. So what I had to pick up, and I went to private school for my citizenship. There was a Mrsā€¦for a while, I guess, everybody went to school with her. Everybody knew her. Sheā€¦she taught everybody English. So I went private to her for my citizenship. So after two years, I could make my citizenship because we were in America. So, still donā€™t speak right English now.
HEIFETZ: Can you still speak French?
HERRMANN: I spoke French very well, but in, you know, if you donā€™t speak it, you know, itā€™s not your mother tongue, you know. If I am in France a while, by the time I go home, I know again. I understand more than Iā€¦than I speak. Nobody can talk about meā€¦I know what theyā€™re talking. So went thereā€¦first time we went to Europe, it was in ā€™63. We went to France.
HEIFETZ: What was that like going back?
HERRMANN: Horrible. So weā€¦I really didnā€™tā€¦we only went to the cemeteryā€¦Willyā€™s ā€“ my mother-in-lawā€™s grave. But every time you saw somebody look at him, you know, you figure out how old can he be? Was he the one? So every time you saw some Germans or even some French people you know you looked at them and figure out could he be that age, could he have done something? So, but when I was in Marseilles, you know, after the war was over, I went to every organization. They had listsā€¦people who came back. You know, every few days, they had new lists. I think there was an organization or the Americans, they had all lists and names of people were on there. That went on for a while, but then after a while, you give up. (PAUSES) So in America, I really didnā€™t have a hard time. I had a good timeā€¦easy.
HEIFETZ: Except you told me that when you first arrived hereā€¦
HERRMANN: Oh I had, dreaming, you know, the first few weeks. I screamed practically every night. So somebodyā€¦somebody was behind me and tried to take me, or whatever. But after a while that stopped too. You know, whenā€¦when you get settled, all the new surroundings, itā€™s quiet and your nerves get quiet too.
HEIFETZ: When you were in hiding ā€“ did you have nightmares like that?
HERRMANN: I donā€™t really know. So, sometimes you dream, sometimes you scream too, you know. But, not that bad whenā€¦when I was quiet here ā€“ when everything was quiet, then it really cameā€¦came out. (PAUSES)
HEIFETZ: And now howā€¦do you think back to those times?
HERRMANN: Very vaguely, you know. Sometimes you think back, you knowā€¦sure. So but sometimes I wonder how I made it. How I could do it, you knowā€¦on the run all the time. Sometimes you were on the bus or you had to go out, right on the next stop, you were afraid they would ask you for paper, even if you had the right papers. But you always knew they werenā€™t your papers. Sometimes they went all over, even in the store. They asked for identification papers. So, but sinceā€¦since I know I had false identification, you know, it really gets shaky anyway if they asked for it. So I hadā€¦I had an accent ā€“ a French accent also, you know, like I have an accent here. But all my paper was Alsace-Lorraine. You know, they have an accent ā€“ they speak German also. So that wasnā€™t that ā€“ so I could say I was from there. And they put the town on there, next to my hometown is the same name of the town. So I couldnā€™t get mixed up with the town. (LAUGHTER) So I knew where that was. So it was the same spelled and the same names. But still youā€¦youā€¦you start shaking when you feel they asked you for the paper, they would know something was wrong. (LONG PAUSE) If you talked to somebody in Europe, nobody did anything or nobody helped everybody, you know. So nobody knew anything what went on.
HEIFETZ: Nobody admitsā€¦
HERRMANN: Ya (PAUSES) So, but my parents didnā€™t stay in the town where I was born. They went back to where my mother came from. But they werenā€™t so nice either.
HEIFETZ: Iā€™m sorry.
HERRMANN: They werenā€™t so nice. Hardly anybody left from that town, you know. So the one who didnā€™t make it to America somewhere still all got killed. (LONG PAUSE) I guess I told you everything I know. I donā€™t know whatā€¦what else youā€¦

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