HEIFETZ: Give me just your first name.
HERRMANN: Helen Herrmann. So where should we start?
HEIFETZ: Why donāt you tell me where youāre from.
HERRMAN: Iām from Cochem. Should I spell it to you?
HEIFETZ: Surely.
HERRMANN: C O C H E M.
HEIFETZ: M?
HERRMANN: M ā (PAUSES) but sometimes it is spelled with a K, also. But when I went to school, we spelled it with a C.
HEIFETZ: I see, Cochem.
HERRMANN: Cochem on the Moselle. Itās on the Moselle ā itās Rhineland.
HEIFETZ: On theā¦
HERRMANN: Rhineland.
HEIFETZ: And you said Cochem on theā¦
HERRMANN: Moselleā¦Moselle (PAUSES) very close to the French border also. So I had a normal childhood.
HEIFETZ: Did you grow up speaking French as well?
HERRMANN: No, no, no. We didnāt spoke French. It was German, you know, uh, didnāt spoke French.
HEIFETZ: And tell me about your family.
HERRMANN: My father, my mother and the younger sister (PAUSE) which was four years younger. Well we went to (PAUSE) to a school, you know, like anybody else and you know there was no different if there was Jewish or not that time, that was before ā33 and I went to grammar school till the fourth grade and then I started in a private school and that was Catholic nuns, so I was when I was 14, when I usually go till 14 to school, and thatās it. But in a private school, you could go to 16, but since Iām Jewish, so I couldnāt furtherā¦so I stayed home a while and I had nobody, nobody my age, Jewish, Christian.
HEIFETZ: In your town there was no one Jewish?
HERRMANN: No, no one Jewish. There were Jewish, but notā¦not people, not children of my age. (PAUSES) So I didnāt went toā¦to sewing school.
HEIFETZ: To?
HERRMANN: Sewing ā to learn sew ā little a while, it was alsoā¦and after I was 15 or so, you know, nobody talked to you anymore. They all were afraid to talk to you, you know, kids who went to school with me.
HEIFETZ: You were born what year?
HERRMANN: ā20 (PAUSES)ā¦1920. So everything was normal till I was 13, you know.
HEIFETZ: How did the nuns treat you before then?
HERRMANN: Okay too. But they treated me before ā there was only one Jewish girl and one true Protestant in that school.
HEIFETZ: How did it feel being the only Jewish girl?
HERRMANN: Iā¦you didnāt, you know, didnāt make no difference, you know. When the priest ā they had twice a week the priest came for someā¦for one hour so we could go out ā so we didnāt have to stayā¦But you always were praying before eachā¦each class. But in the ā in the other schools too, you know, in the morning.
HEIFETZ: Even in the public school?
HERRMANN: You know, everything there was no different ā state or religion ā even, uh, I had Hebrew school, you know, maybe five, six kids but they all very young and so twice a week, we had Hebrew school.
HEIFETZ: After school?
HERRMANN: Ya ā Wednesdays ā there was no school so between two and four, we had to go toā¦to cheder and Sunday morning from nine to 12, we had to go also. They had a beautiful synagogue, so the people came from around, you know. There were small towns around ā they came for service and the children came to school too.
HEIFETZ: You enjoyed yourselves?
HERRMANN: Oh yes. They had a beautiful ā was not a rabbi ā I donāt know what you call it, but probably was a rabbi. He did all the functions what a rabbi did. He was a cantor. He was a hassan and whatever, you know, he buried when, he married when ā he was a shochet you know, Bar Mitzvah and everything, soā¦
HEIFETZ: There were no Bas Mitzvahs?
HERRMANN: No, never heard of it till lately, you know. Never heard of it. (PAUSES) So I had a normal childhood. Iā¦in fact, I was the only child in my family for four years so I had everything that, (PAUSES) you know, what I wantedā¦only grandchild and spoiled.
HEIFETZ: (LAUGHTER) Were your grandparents in your town?
HERRMANN: My fatherās stepmother lived in the town, but my motherās parents lived on the border from Luxembourg so we went every vacation to my grandma, you know, to them. So that time you could. There was a river in betweenā¦one part was German and across the river was Luxembourg. So that, before Hitler, you could just cross the river, over the bridge, and then you were in Luxembourg, ya know. There was no different but later on, in Hitlerās time, you had to have papers to go over there. So all of a sudden you couldnāt go anymore.
HEIFETZ: So then you didnāt get to see your grandparents?
HERRMANN: My grandfather died when I was 12 and my grandmother she just died before they were deported. (PAUSES) So when the war, so ā36, I didnāt want to stay anymore in Cochem. I went to Trier. Thatās a bigger town so there were more Jews there, you knowā¦Jewishā¦Jews. So I found a familyā¦I took care of children and I could stay with them. I stayed with them a year and a half. Soā¦and I could go on all the functions from the Jewish organizations and something I enjoyed. People went to Israel. There was some people living in the house and they said, āI have an aunt in Luxembourg and she wants somebody like a companion. Her husband just died. Would you go there?ā I grabbed it. I said, āOh, sure.ā Everybody wanted to go to Luxembourg, you know, there was a lot of young people there, Jewish young people from Germany. The only thing you could go, if somebody sponsored you, you know. Otherwise you couldnāt get in or you had to have a lot of money, to live from your money. (PAUSES) You had to haveā¦to work…you had to get a permission to work. You only could ā to get to permission for work, to work, nobody else wanted to doā¦to go in the household and there a lot ofā¦See, the husband was there too and I didnāt know that. So you only could do ā the boys went to farmers ā got permission to go to farmers, so there were a lot of young people there. So we enjoyed it too. We stayed there till, in ā40, May fourth I guess, even on that day the Nazis came. So, but in the meantime, my parents moved to my grandmotherās and where they lived, they built a Seigfried Line and the whole town had to leave. And they took āem all close to Berlin. They stayed there for two years, but in the meantime, the Goyims could come back, but not the Jewish people. But eventually they could come back and they went to Trier. From there they were all shipped away. So when the Germans came in, the 10th of May, the people where I was working there, they left for France.
HEIFETZ: And at this time, you were 20 years old?
HERRMANN: Yes, I was just 20 at that time. They wanted to take me along. I said, āWhatās the use to go along. I only have a German pass. I donāt even get to the border. They will take me alrightā¦they see on the German passport ā the J, the Jew ā and the last, and the middle name was āSarah.ā You know, every Jewish girl had the name āSarah.ā I guess you know that, soā¦
HEIFETZ: And the boys had name āIsrael?ā
HERRMANN: Yes, ya ā whatās the use to ā Iām not going along, I will stay. And around the corner from me was a girlfriend of mine and she said, āIām not going either ā I will stay too.ā Her people went too. So we went ā stayed in the house where I was working. It was a big house and the Jewish community at that time there were a lotā¦aā¦uh, lot of people there from Vienna ā from Austria. But they couldnāt work, you know. The Jewish Federation or somebody took care of āem and they stayed in a hotel. But the German took the hotel room, so they had to make room for them people. So, they put the whole house was full of Jews. (LAUGHTER) So we stayed there for allā¦nobody bothered us ā about for six months.
HEIFETZ: How many of you?
HERRMANN: Only about ā two girlfriends of mine ā maybe three. We were in one room and two couples I guess ā thatā¦maybe some more. I donāt know. So, anyway nobody bothered us.
HEIFETZ: What did you do for money?
HERRMANN: Weā¦girlfriendā¦we found jobs. We worked, household again, you know. Some left ā some came back ā some stayed, you know. But youā¦from Austria there they got paid fromā¦from the Jewishā¦I think at that time it was SRā¦whatever it was, you know, itāsā¦So they got paid. So we worked. So we could stay in the house. We didnāt have to pay rent or nothing. But I stillā¦I donāt ā I forgot who paid theā¦theā¦the light and the electricity. So I didnāt know what happened there. So maybe just nobody paid. (LAUGHTER) So, once of the sudden, we had to get out of there.
HEIFETZ: How did you know that?
HERRMANN: So they came and by dinner then, we had to get out.
HEIFETZ: Did the soldiers come to the house?
HERRMANN: No, no. I guess from the Jewish things, they came. So weā¦a couple living there, and they went to America and they bought some stuff from Europe, and they put an ad in the paper ā which we didnāt know ā to send things ā and they got wind of it ā so we had to get out of there.
HEIFETZ: So you found this out by Jewishā¦
HERRMANN: Ya.
HEIFETZ: ā¦publications?
HERRMANN: So then we stayed till the 10th of May. A lot of people, you know, most of them left. There werenāt too many Jewish people, but the one who left, every few weeks, we got an order ā we had to leave. We had a very nice rabbi, fairly young rabbi. He was from Austria and everytime the time came we had to leave, he went to the Gestapo. And the first time we went there, there was a guy sitting there ā he went to school with. He knew him. He always gave him a little extension. And the next time we went there, that guy wasnāt there anymore. So, I guess they got wind of it, or whatever. So we were in a transport, bus load. I donāt know, maybe 30 or even more with two SS with what you call it? They were sitting there with rifles. And they took us. They told us they would take us to Southernā¦to France. And we went to Paris the first night and we stayed in a hotel. (PAUSES) And then the next morning they took us on ā that time France was partitioned. Part was occupied, one part wasnāt. So they told us they would take us on theā¦on the border, and would put us on the train, and then we should go wherever we want to. And if they would come and arrest us, we should tell me we would go to Israel. So we were debating where should we go when we were on that train. So we decided maybe we go to Marseilles ā thatās a port. Maybe we find a boat, you know, just a boat and go, you know. Maybe we find a boat and go somewhere, you know, couldā¦
HEIFETZ: Did you have money with you? Did youā¦?
HERRMANN: No, all we could take was 150 marks that time. Thatās all we could take. Thatās all what we had. Soā¦
HEIFETZ: Did you have belongings with you?
HERRMANN: What did we have much, you know, just a few clothes. You know you couldnāt ā you couldnāt take much. Thatās all what we had, everybody few clothes, you know, suitcase, thatās all. It was my girlfriend and she had a brother was with us, few young people, boys from where we knew, you know. So we, then we decided on the way we go to Marseilles. When we got to Marseilles, it was like here, the train ā it drove inā¦like the train station here ā all the way in. (PAUSES) We werenāt used to that, you know. In Europe ā Germany ā stations are all outside. You go out and youāre outside, you know, but here the train drove in a hole. Next, and there was a hotel on the one side, restaurant, whatever. And then we got out of the, we werenāt sitting all together so we, in a few compartments, so that we shouldnātā¦so when we got out of the train, we saw police picked four people up already ā four boys ā said, āOh my God, that starts already.ā I had an uncle ā brother of my mother ā lived in Nice. So when I was in the station, Iā¦I wrote a card, āIām in Marseilles.ā I donāt know what happened, maybe take care of my luggage, whatever happened. So I donāt know if they take us, or whatever. Some are picked up already andā¦and in that ā that was the station or hotel had two entrances. One takes you to the outside, and one to the station. And we were sitting in the restaurant there ā a few of theā¦the guys got up and wentā¦went out and didnāt come back. I said, āThe heck ā where theyāre going? Letās do the same thing.ā So one after the other got out, went out. Marseilles the station is all the way up the hill. We go all the way down steps, so it was night ā where should we go? We were tired. We couldnāt stand up anymore. We were three dayā¦three days on the way.
HEIFETZ: Did you eat?
HERRMANN: I donāt know. We took some sandwiches along ā thatās all. I, you know what we could take along. So we ate some sandwiches, maybe a little food. I donāt even know anymore. So maybe we had a cup coffee in the restaurant in the station. So then we found a hotel, around that, you know, that it was not a very good neighborhood. So we didnāt notice it. Anyway we found a hotel, says āOpen.ā So we went in and got a room and at least we were, overnight gone. In the morning we went out, and we found the other one, walking (LAUGHTER) around there too. So we found most of āem together again. So somebody said, āI found out ā I talked to somebody ā there is a Jewish committee here. Maybe we could go there and see whatās what.ā So we wentā¦they showed us to theā¦they knew where it was. So we went with them and sure enough, there was a Jewish committee and it was like a ā¦like a barracks ā it said āhotelā but it was like a barracks forā¦and the shipsā¦ship came in for the crew to sleep, you knowā¦stacked up beds. So we went in and they had a kitchen there. So we got somethingā¦we had to stand in line at least to get something warm to eat. So I donāt know what it was anymore. It looked like peas but it was big. So I didnāt like it, but we ate it anyway. (LAUGHTER) So, while we were standing in line there, my girlfriend said, āLooks like it is a cousin of mine there, second cousin of mine.ā So and sure enough, it was aā¦it was her. And I told her I know of a friend of my grandfather he had a daughter in Marseilles but I wouldnāt know what her married name is. She said, āI know who it is and heās there too, Mr. Tom. I take you to āem.ā So we went there and he said, āI find you jobs.ā So he found my girlfriend and me jobs in a household.
HEIFETZ: Did they ask when you went to get the job if you were Jewish?
HERRMANN: He knows, you know, that he only took us for Jewish people, you know. The first job I had was a Turkishā¦Turkish family. She couldnāt German ā I couldnāt French so it was (LAUGHTER) I couldnāt stay there, you know, we couldnātā¦
HEIFETZ: Communicate.
HERRMANN: Communicate, you know. So I said, I went back to Mr. Tom, āIā¦I canāt stay there. I donāt know what to do. She donāt know what to tell me, so it wonāt work.ā He said, āI know somebody else, that is aā¦heās from Paris, but he speaks German. He is from Alsace-Lorraine. Heās a lawyerā¦He was a famous lawyer, maybe theyāre looking for somebody.ā So I went there. They had five girlsā¦five children. So I worked there for a while. He spoke German, but she couldnāt either, but we could, you know.
HEIFETZ: And they were Jewish?
HERRMANN: They were Jewish, ya. They came from Paris. Theyā¦they were, you know, refugees also. But he opened a practice there. He helped people who were in Gurs in the concentration camps, at that timeā¦people ā they had papers ā they could go to America, you know. They was still transportation going, you know. So he had the people. So some people came there. So I guess theā¦somebody moved from the camp and they could come out and pay theā¦he went with them to American Consul and get the papers. So I worked there for a while. What happened then, the friend where we met on that organization ā so we found a room. We rented a room. I said to my girlfriend, āAs long as I have money, I wonāt stay hereā¦stacked up.ā One side was a man, you know. It was really ā there were a lotā¦at that time there were a lot of Spaniards there ā from the Revolution of ā36 ā a lot of Spaniards there too. Once of a sudden, they disappeared. So then it was full of Jews from all over. It was like a ā I donāt know ā people were waiting for papers to go somewhere or some were the men there in concentration camp and the women were thereā¦aā¦it was a mess!
HEIFETZ: No privacy at all?
HERRMANN: No, none whatsoever. So my girlfriend, another friend, we rented a room. But it was not the best room either. But at least we had our own room. So we worked. Then later on we went a little bit better. We went in a different street, but the only thing, you could disappear was in the worse ā worse part of the town, you know, because once of a sudden myā¦I had papers. So we could get papers that time from the French. Every six months we had to renew it and after the first six months, they didnāt renew. They told me there were enough people here. I should go somewhere else. So they asked me ā I couldnāt tell āem I was working, ācause youāre not supposed to ā so since you have money, you can go somewhere else too.
HEIFETZ: Not your girlfriend?
HERRMANN: No, just mine. So I donāt know what the reason was. So anyway, she said to me, āWhy donāt forget about it and live without papers? What can they do, so worse can happen, they can take us and put us in a camp.ā So thatās what I did. So I stayed without papers, so, but it still wasā¦still unoccupied. It still was French then. But then they started to pick people up, you know, mostly men. There was aā¦a camp, a working camp not too far from Marseilles.
HEIFETZ: Whoās demanding all of the papers and all if it was unoccupied Germany ā I mean French?
HERRMANN: Of course the Frenchā¦the Frenchā¦the Frenchā¦French, so they didnāt want that many strangers around there, I guess, I donāt know.
HEIFETZ: It wasnāt only directed at the Jews then?
HERRMANN: No, no. No, they didnāt know I wasā¦I didnāt, had no, no, Jew on there thenā¦
HEIFETZ: It was simply foreign?
HERRMANN: Yeah, foreigners. Thatās what it was. It was special for foreigners where they had to go, you know.
HEIFETZ: I see.
HERRMANN: Protector ā thatās what they called them. And they took all the boys, and took them in theā¦by the time they hadā¦they got ration cards. See I couldnāt get my ration cards. I had to buy āem on the black market. You had to show your papers when you get the ration cards. Soā¦
HEIFETZ: Where did you get black market?
HERRMANN: Oh you could get black market all over. Always somebody there that would help if you payā¦
HEIFETZ: How did you find the people?
HERRMANN: Where you worked. They helped you, you know. I later onā¦we worked with Gentile people, you know, and it was occupied. The people we knew ā the Jewish people left then also, you know when the Germans came in. Once all of the sudden, my girlfriend and I were the only ones there what we knew, so she worked for a gentile woman. She was very nice. And I worked for a gentile woman. There was a organization like itā¦dispenser, like a clinic. It was I think, you know, it was from Americans paid, or whatever, I donāt know. There was a girl. She had a baby. She said, āYou better take care of the baby.ā I said, āSure I would.ā So she helped us get the cards and I did some laundry for other people. I washed and I cleaned and I did everything. Then the Germans came. So somebody told me ā you have no papers. I triedā¦I, if you want to, you can get a falseā¦false papers that youāre French.
HEIFETZ: Excuse me ā when you, when you were in unoccupied France, what did you do about keeping up with your religious life?
HERRMANN: That time we could go to synagogue, you know. There was a temple, you know, it was Sephardica, you could go to temple. We went on the holidays to temple.
HEIFETZ: Did you keep kosher?
HERRMANN: How could you keep? We glad something to eat, you know, nothing kosher anymore. That was out. But we always could get matzot, so I never ate breadā¦always could get matzot. The only thing you had to give double ration from your bread card to get matzot. You could get two poundsā¦two pounds of matzot, and you have to get four points bread cards. But I always managed to find them so thatās the only thing I kept. I never ate bread onā¦
HEIFETZ: What aboutā¦whenā¦oh well, you didnāt go to a mikvah anyway?
HERRMANN: No ā I wasnāt married. No use to go to a mikvah. I donāt even know where the mikvah were anyways. So I donāt know if the Sephardicā¦they have different customs. So one time we had to stay at the hotel where, the room where we hadā¦somebody told us get out of there ā there will be aā¦they go from house to house and look for people. So we didnāt know where to go. It was late at night. We still didnāt know where to go. So my girlfriend said, āLetās goā¦go in that temple.ā So we went to theā¦They had a Jewish rabbi and he lived and the caretaker lived next to the temple. So we went in there ā we said, āWe have no place to go overnight.ā The only place you can go, you can stay and sleep in the library. So we stayed in night ā in the library, and Iām telling you, that was the worst night in my life. There were pictures hanging from all the rabbis, you knowā¦life-size pictures, you know ā light from the outside shown in. Iām telling you it was awful. So every time you hear the noise, he said, ah uh, now theyāre coming in here too. So we just stayed there one night there. Then we find where I was working, the woman was very nice. She said, āIf you want to, you can sleep on the kitchen floor.ā So my girlfriend and I, we slept, oh, about four months on her kitchen floor. Stayed at night on her kitchen floor.
HEIFETZ: That was a very courageous thing for her to do.
HERRMANN: Ya ā she was a gentile woman, so weā¦
HEIFETZ: She must have liked you.
HERRMANN: There were houses that were like ā a big apartment ā like a complex and you could go from one house, over the roof, to the other house, you know, a big complex. So in the morning we went up on the roof and went on the other house downstairs. In the evening we went up there so we had to leave early in the morning before they got in the kitchen, you know. But it was a stone floor! So we stayed there a while till it quiet down a little bit and somebody told us there to see the Armenian were very good to us. See, they went through the same trouble. They knew ā so we found an Armenian. I tell youā¦the worstā¦when we went to Marseilles, I showed Willy where we lived. He didnāt know how we could live. But we did. So the Armenian people had, oh, usually two, three people in two rooms, you know, they were notā¦So that there was an older couple ā they had one room. It was here was their room and here was a room that was like a dark roomā¦no windows ā just a window to the hall. Next door, another Armenian couple. But they knew we were staying there. And one night they came ā the Gestapo ā from room to room and said their, āOpen up, open up,ā and they told āem thereās nobody in there that belongs to them ā just a storage. Iām telling you, we were outside. I tell you our hearts went like that! And in the morning when we came down, all the ā everybody practically we knew, were gone. Nobody was left anymore. So weā¦we stayedā¦
HEIFETZ: Must of been very grateful to those people?
HERRMANN: Yes, we paid, you know, not that we, you know, but anyway it was risky for them too, you know. It was a little room. Oh notā¦not even as big as dining room here. There was bed in there. We slept two and my girlfriend and I we slept in one bed ā a little table ā I say two chairs. It was all, hooks on the wall where we could hang out the clothes. Outside was a toilet, of course, for the wholeā¦whole floor for everybody. There was a table and water, so, for everybody tooā¦everybody now and then took water. But sometimes they didnāt have water, you know. They even shut the water off. We had to go down on the street and take water. And if the electricity was low ā so whatever they had to say, they cut the water off, quite often. So anyway, we survived.
HEIFETZ: How long were you there?
HERRMANN: Well, I was there from January ā41. I left for America ā46.
HEIFETZ: You stayed in that room forā¦?
HERRMANN: No, no, no. So thenā¦the Americans or whatever, there was a bombardment. The haupt street was ka-put. The bombsā¦it was on a Saturday morning and I had off. I wasnāt working that Saturday. Once in a week, you could to where public bathing houses, you know. You could take a shower, or whatever. They were only two days open because they had to save the coal, you know. So that Saturday morning, I went in the shower ā I was debating ā I want to go to beauty shop ā get a haircut. I went in the beauty shop. There were too many people. She couldnāt take me, so I forget about it and I go, and then the sirens started to go. I couldnāt ā so I ran to other house and I stayed until it was over. And the room where I stayed, the whole plaster, everything ā came down. Oh a lot of people got killedā¦in the thousands. So the beauty shop where I wanted to goā¦disappeared. Was gone too. So I was lucky. (LAUGHTER)
HEIFETZ: And where were you when that happened?
HERRMANN: So I went another street and I stayed there in aā¦in aā¦in a house, you know, in the door and waited till, till it was over.
HEIFETZ: All by yourself?
HERRMANN: Ya, so then I didnāt know where my girlfriend was. She was working that day. So she went looking for me ā I looking for her, you know. Finally weā¦we caught up with each other.
HEIFETZ: You were very good friends?
HERRMANN: Ya. (PAUSES) So in the meantime, the boys were in camp, and they were all deported, so we never heard anymore. It was a brother was in there and some friends.
HEIFETZ: Were you able to contact your family during all of this?
HERRMANN: When I was in theā¦not my parentsā¦no, that was out. So I didnāt even know where they were. So when I ā when I was in unoccupied ā my aunt, they lived in Luxembourg ā my sister was living with them. They lived on the border from France and when the war started in ā40 and the Germans came in, the whole town left. So they were fighting in that town. In the meantime, there were goings on ā maybe two, three family, Jewish people ā my aunt they stayed there to work in Red Cross and once in a while, I could hear, but once of a sudden, I didnāt hear from them anymore either. That was in ā42 so they took them somewhere. I donāt know where they took them.
HEIFETZ: Your sister too?
HERRMANN: Ya. She was living there. My aunt, she had only one daughter. She was 14 years old when they operated on her and decided it was not worth it. I donāt know what she had ā but she died. But then my aunt she didnāt care anymore. So maybe they could of saved herself too like some of them, you know. But Iā¦I imagine they didnāt care anymore, so also deported. It was also in ā42, and I had, my mother had another brother in Belgium. They had a little boy ā so in ā42 they disappeared too. So nobody heard anything anymore from them. So in the meantime, I got a false French card.
HEIFETZ: How were you lucky enough to get that?
HERRMANN: Cost me a lot of money.
HEIFETZ: Not luck, hard work.
HERRMANN: Ya. So the girl where I took the babyā¦where I took care of the baby, the gentile girlā¦in fact she was engaged to a Jewish boy and got killed also ā she had the baby. So anyway, she told me, āI know a girl from the underground, maybe I get you in touch with her ā maybe she can help.ā (PAUSES) So she told me, āMeet her there and there you will find her, she has a paper in her hand, or whatever, so we usually met at the post office.ā And I met her at the post office, the first thing when she saw me, she said, āWhat kind of identification do you have?ā And I showed her my card and she said, āOh my God were you lucky nobody asked for it. Thatās the most false card I have ever seen. I get you new one.ā So she got me a new cardā¦a good false card. (LAUGHTER) So you were lucky thatā¦that nobody ask you for it. You know that time you couldnāt go without cards. Once in a while theā¦the guys came in the streetcars or whatever, they ask for identification, you know.
HEIFETZ: Did you carry it with you at all times?
HERRMANN: All the times. So then she gave me one. But I didnāt have to pay for that so sheā¦she tried to give it to me, so from the underground, but I never knew her name so she never told her name. So ever so often, I met her. Once in a while she gave me money too, for my friend and me. But she never toldā¦told us her name. She only told the first name, but I didnāt even know anymore the first name. But once a sudden she didnāt came anymore, so I donāt know if they had taken her or whatever. So we stayed ā then we got another room in that house ā the people what lived in the one room ā they moved to Cannes. So it has a little better room. At least it had a window. So we stayed in thereā¦I stayed in there, till I went to America. But after the war ā quite often, we always had to buy our ration cards, seeā¦see could ofā¦we were afraid with a false card we couldnāt get our ration cards.
HEIFETZ: Your friend had a false card also?
HERRMANN: Sure. We all had false cards. So we always said, but we always find people who helpedā¦we had whole bunch of cardsā¦red cardsā¦there were tickets ā for cigarettes, or tickets for wine. You know the French drink a lot of wine. So which we didnāt use and the cigarettes we didnāt use. So we exchanged around. We always managed to get something else for that. So weā¦but I have to say the Armenians there were very, very good to us.
HEIFETZ: You know a lot of people said noā¦no one was willing to help. But you had maybe four different experiences with gentiles who were extremely helpful. Do you think that there was something about you?
HERRMANN: I donāt know, but the most of them came ā see the Armenians they went through the same the Jews went through, you know. They had to leave and they killed them, you know. So they knew what ā howā¦how toā¦and the other gentiles they came, they came from Alsace-Lorraine also. They didnāt stay with Hitler. They were some kind of refugees too.
HEIFETZ: There were people who really didnāt believe in Hitler?
HERRMANN: Ya, ya. So thatās the gentile I knew, you know, who came from Alsace-Lorraine and helped us. So, in fact, one woman she helped us. I guess she dealsā¦she dealt in black market and she helped us to get (LAUGHTER) so whatever weā¦So but anyway, she was nice enough, sheā¦we could sleep in her kitchen, you know, for couple months.
HEIFETZ: Whatā¦when you were living, I keep thinking about that little room, that you were living in with your friend. Whatā¦what did you talk about? What did you do when you werenāt working?
HERRMANN: We were ā I donāt ā I donāt even know what we were, you know. Not much to do. Sometimes we went to walk. We went to the ocean, you know, Marseilleās right on the ocean. So we went intoā¦we walked sometimes. We were afraid to go in the bus or streetcars. We walked in the morning to work and we walked most of the time home. In fact, even to save a nickel, you know. So if the weather was nice, but sometimes it was so terribly cold, we didnāt have any heat in there. Iām telling you we went with the coats in bed. We put the coats on and the gloves and stockings and we laid, and went to bed. It was cold wind there, you know. We had noā¦no heat in there ā nothing toā¦
HEIFETZ: Did you talk about your families, orā¦?
HERRMANN: Sure. So my girlfriend had all my ā from my relatives names, in case something should happen to me. So she should write to āem, whatever, you know. So, but she never wanted to come to America. So, in fact, she passed away already. Sheās not living anymore. So I gave her, you know, she knew all my family and everythingā¦the names, in case something should get separated, you know. So in the meantime my relatives in Nice, they left too, for one night and then they went to Switzerland. So they had a horrible time too. So they were in camp in Switzerland. So my uncle was German and my aunt was French, so they had to leave through the barbed wire also.
HEIFETZ: You, but you saidā¦Iām, Iām amazed, you said that while you were working, you would go and get your hair cut.
HERRMANN: Yeah you had to go and get a haircut once in a while or something, you know. So the people around there where we lived, they knew me, you know, whatever. So they saw us long enough.
HEIFETZ: But you obviously still cared very much about your appearance?
HERRMANN: Oh sure, oh sure. You had to take care of yourself, you know. You had to take a bath once in a while ā not every day like here ā people donāt do that like they do here, you know. So once in a week you couldā¦could go in the public, whenever theyā¦they had the coal. I donāt know what we paid for it ā couple of francs or whatever. So I think sometimes they give you, you couldnāt even ā you didnāt even have soap. Was likeā¦like sand, you know. So you were lucky once in a while, you find a piece of soap, you know. With that you couldnāt wash your hair, you know. It was like sand. So you had to go somewhere once in a while ā get a hairā¦get your hair washed, real, you know.
HEIFETZ: It wasnāt as much for vanity as it was for cleanliness?
HERRMANN: Ya, so because with that soap you had, was like, even in the shower, it didnāt come out, you know. So you needed a haircut once in a while otherwise, you know. Oh sure before, you know, before Hitler, you could go to movie ā before the occupation, you know, then to the movie on Saturday, whatever, you know. You didnāt have to be afraid, you know.
HEIFETZ: Did you have boyfriends?
HERRMANN: No. I had some friends, but not what you call boyfriends, you know. In fact, I had some friends, they were in camp not too far from Marseilles. He was supposed to come to St. Louis also. He had a sister here. So we always were talking whenā¦when we meet in St. Louis again, you know. But he didnāt make it. But I knew him from before the camp, you know. In fact he was a relative of my auntās soā¦but I met him again in southern France.
HEIFETZ: Must of seemed like aā¦an amazingly small world?
HERRMANN: Yea, a lotā¦lotā¦lot of boys we met, we knew from Luxembourg. You know they all, once of a sudden they all were in that camp. So twice a week my girlfriend and me we bought bread. They didnāt get enough to eat there either, you know. We bought bread and took it. They came out in the evening and there was a little tavern or whatever, so we met there andā¦and gave them the bread.
HEIFETZ: It was, uh, what kind of a camp then ā just a labor camp?
HERRMANN: Some kind of labor camp, ya. So it was from the French. It was not from German. But later on the German took āem all. So they had to work on the street or whatever. I donāt know.
HEIFETZ: And no one stopped you from going to give themā¦?
HERRMANN: No ā we said itās our boyfriends, you know, it was my girlfriendās brother was there and twice a week we took the bus. Was an hourās drove by the streetcar. In the afternoon, when we were through with work, we took some bags. We went and got some bread, you knowā¦got 200 grams breadā¦thatās a little piece whatā¦what is thatā¦you know special for men who works, even forā¦for somebody else if you donāt have nothing else. So we took the bread and we went over there one day the campā¦they were gone.
HEIFETZ: Must have been a terrible day for your friend especially.
HERRMANN: So she never heard of them no more and some escaped. So I knew two boys fromā¦from Vienna. Once of a sudden we saw āem again, so they escaped. So they didnātā¦didnāt even go along or whatever. How they escaped, I donāt know, but they were there.
HEIFETZ: Did she give up hope, orā¦?
HERRMANN: So she always thought maybe heās somewhere. But she had a sister in middle France. Her husband wasnāt Jewishā¦was American, but nobody knew she was Jewish. So she all of a sudden maybe we would try to go to her, you know, but so she had a little garden, that sister. Quite often sheād send us a package of potatoes. In fact, she was the one who told us, āDonāt stay in your rooms tonight.ā She came special from her husband worked on the railroad station so she got cheaper railroad. One day she came, she said, āIā¦I heard from somebody, they should be, they come and take people away, donāt stay in your rooms.ā And where my girlfriend worked, the Jewish people, the first job ā they left too on the border forā¦for vacation. So she had the key. She said, āYou know what, we go and sleep there?ā So we went there and slept at their house. So we sleptā¦